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[Music]

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oh

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[Music]

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welcome back to the disclosure team

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youtube channel for a special video

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um i have some guests with me today and

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i'm not going to waste any more time so

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i will bring them in one by one

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first i'd like to welcome dr david

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clarke

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david how are you good thank you yeah

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thanks for inviting me on ah my pleasure

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i'm really excited for this one and next

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up we have matthew wheelsley

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how you doing matthew

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very well thank you

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yeah all good thank you and finally we

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have giles stevens giles thank

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you guys

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so yeah so

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an exciting video uh this time um

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calvin back to talking about calvin

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um

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i think initially the best thing to do

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is to give a brief overview of of the

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case

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so uh david if you don't mind uh take it

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away okay well it's um

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most people if you've got any knowledge

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of of ufology and certainly uh british

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you followed you will know you you will

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have probably some basic

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knowledge of this case it's a unique

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case it happened in 1990

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um

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nick pope uh mentioned it very briefly

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in his first book of open skies closed

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minds

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um and um in i think it was a 19 2009

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when the ministry of defense released

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their second tranche of um ufo documents

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at the national archives where i was um

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doing running the um the public

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disclosure uh project that they were

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involved in that was the first time we

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actually saw some ministry of defense

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documents on it and there wasn't a lot

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very sparse just a couple of

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memos from the ufo desk officer uh a guy

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called owen hartop who was the um

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the ufo desk officer before nick poe

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because nick pope

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took that job in 1991 and basically he

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was briefing the ministry of defense

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saying that two guys out walking at a

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place called he actually spells it

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wrongly clavine it was actually calvin

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and he spells pitlochry wrong as well

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it's north of pitlochry took six

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photographs

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of a large diamond-shaped object in the

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sky that was shadowed by a what appeared

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to be a harrier jet

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and that he'd sent that sent these

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photographs to the scottish daily record

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so at the point he was writing he was

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basically saying briefing ministers and

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saying they've got this story as an

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exclusive uh they're gonna use it um you

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need to be aware of this you know we've

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sent these photographs to our experts

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they've been unable to identify the

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large diamond-shaped object they also

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said rather bizarrely that although it

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appears as a harrier there and also a a

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very distant second harrier as well

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um they haven't been i'd be able to

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identify at that stage where those areas

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came from because there were no

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operational harriers at that time in

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scotland and at after that point the the

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the the file just goes dead there's

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nothing else

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except um in a in another file a di-55

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which was the um the defense

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intelligence staff age

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branch that actually did the ufo

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investigations that there's a very

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enigmatic

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uh few papers made to that same euro i

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think the next year

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where they talk about re-tasking the

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photo analysis so that they've got

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someone to either make a a huge blow-up

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drawing of this thing so it could be

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projected onto a wall or a whiteboard

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and there's some very brief documents

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about that but nothing else um the only

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other thing in the files

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was um a response to a parliamentary

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question that was asked by marty redmond

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mp who was my local mp at the time for

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don valley

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um and he basically having read nick

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pope's book asked a question in the

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house of commons like what what do you

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know about this thing and they basically

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just stonewalled him and said

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we looked at the images we sent the

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original negatives back to the daily

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record

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um and um we couldn't identify the

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diamond shaped object but there was no

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defense significance the usual sort of

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mod

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bland statement that says nothing so i

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made some inquiries at that time in 2009

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when i was working on the national

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archives release

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i contacted the daily record spoke to

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someone on picture desk i can't remember

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the name of the person um someone on

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newsdesk they both said yet we are aware

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of the story as well um because they ran

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a story about it when these this um file

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was released but no one here remembers

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what happened no one can explain what

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happened to the negatives we don't know

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why we didn't run the story i pushed it

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as far as i could but i had so many so

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many other stories that were in that um

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in those files that i just eventually

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had to leave it i think i made

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a freedom of information act request to

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jarrick um which is the the raf um photo

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agency and they the usual thing oh sorry

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no can't find anything we destroy

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everything after five years anyway

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so i left it there

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and it wasn't until um i think it was

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must be over ten years later when um

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when matthew

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emailed me out of the blue basically

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saying he'd be making some inquiries

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into the into the story and at that time

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um

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1990

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should have been opened properly at the

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national archives under the 30-year rule

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so i was waiting for the

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for the the page that got the name of

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the witness uh

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that would be redacted to open on the

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1st of january 2020 and then they did

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the we had this situation where uh

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because the national archives and the

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ministry of defence are interpreting

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data protection in such an extreme way

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that rather than opening that file and

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releasing the name as they had done for

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all the previous files up to um that

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point

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they basically said no sorry we're

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having a 74 or 56 year closure so that

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so the name was going to be withheld not

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the file just the name

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of the witness

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um was going to be withheld for a

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further 56 years and that i i actually

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made a i got so far with it with an

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appeal to the information commissioner

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about that um didn't get anywhere and

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that's the point that matthew came into

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the picture and you mentioned there the

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uh in the national archive files i've

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got the uh just wanted to show the image

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here yeah of the only only image that is

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available

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uh through through that uh that method

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and that was it yeah

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pretty poor

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yeah

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whether that is a photocopy of a of a

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photo of a print or whether it's a

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a copy of a line drawing because we know

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that the the actual re-tasking they were

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asking for detailed line drawings to be

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made

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and there is this whole story as well

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which i've neglected to mention that is

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is referred to by nick pope that when he

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joined the ufo desk in 1991 and he told

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me this when i interviewed him in london

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in 2001

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he

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images

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and it was like a talking point in the

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office and people used to come in and

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say what the hell is that sort of thing

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and he his story is is that um his head

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of the head of um section the real head

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of the ufo desk

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um

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john clark or jrg clark

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um who we've never been able to track

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down that he was really worried about it

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because there was this whole series of

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questions in 1991 and 1992.

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um about um um whether the you the

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united states were flying at secret

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reconnaissance aircraft um from uh a

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base in scotland raf macrihanish and the

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scotsman did a big piece on this big

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expose

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and it led to a load of questions in the

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house of commons where ministers were

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being questioned have you given

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authorization to the usa to fly their

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spy planes around and land them and they

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denied it even though the the internal

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rec papers show that they actually

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thought this might be possible

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so

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nick popes says that he thought his boss

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was really worried about the possibility

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that this could be some sort of top

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secret experimental aircraft and that at

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some stage he took the poster down

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locked it in a draw and we and probably

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shredded it or destroyed it

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and he actually

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said he i think he came out with this in

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a story that was published in 2012 in

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the huffington post

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um so

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that's all anyone knew about this

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at the time i mean all the all the sort

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of scottish ufologists like ron halliday

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and matt and um

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malcolm

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got his second name

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robinson yeah

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um they knew nothing about this story at

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all which is very very peculiar you know

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that no one despite the fact that the

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witnesses had gone to the daily record

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as well on the daily record and not run

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it baffling

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yeah

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for anybody watching um if you look in

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the description below you can go and

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read

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david's extensive work on the case to

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get the the finer details as well and

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you mentioned nick pope there and it was

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a few years later that he was asked to

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do a recreation of the image as well

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yeah um so i've got that let's have a

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look at that this is for the sun wasn't

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it in um october 19 2020.

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yeah yeah

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so this is he he must have a remarkable

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uh memory i could all i can that's all i

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can say on that point because

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[Laughter]

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um so yeah a lot of people unfortunately

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because they've seen this online they

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assume that is the actual photograph

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yeah i i hear that all the time yeah so

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people see this online and on social

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media and they assume that is the actual

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calvi the original calvin photograph and

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it's not it's a it's a sort of an

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imaginative recreation that nick and

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some artists

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uh working for the sun or some some

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other newspapers sort of

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put together in the absence of the

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actual original image

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yeah yeah

281
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so i suppose it was

282
00:10:48,790 --> 00:10:46,399
we saw the articles in the sun and that

283
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:48,800
crop up around 2020

284
00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:51,360
and and i think you'd kind of

285
00:10:55,509 --> 00:10:53,360
put that case to the side for it for the

286
00:10:57,190 --> 00:10:55,519
time being so let's talk about how how

287
00:10:59,350 --> 00:10:57,200
it came back into your life and how it

288
00:11:00,630 --> 00:10:59,360
was reinvigorated how it came back into

289
00:11:02,710 --> 00:11:00,640
mom this is where i've got to be really

290
00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:02,720
careful because um and i'm not going to

291
00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:05,040
go into how i track this this character

292
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:06,800
down but i i

293
00:11:11,430 --> 00:11:08,800
through quite legitimate investigative

294
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:11,440
journalistic processes i'd i found the

295
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:14,320
matter someone

296
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:18,000
who worked for di55 at the relevant time

297
00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:19,360
um and

298
00:11:23,670 --> 00:11:21,440
i didn't actually speak to him about

299
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:23,680
this case because it wasn't in my mind

300
00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:26,079
at the time i just i just i just learned

301
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:27,360
who he was

302
00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:28,959
and approached him

303
00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:29,760
you know

304
00:11:33,509 --> 00:11:31,680
in the open just saying who i was and

305
00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:33,519
the fact that i knew he worked did what

306
00:11:37,190 --> 00:11:35,200
he did at the time and he was quite

307
00:11:38,710 --> 00:11:37,200
happy to talk to me no problem at all so

308
00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:38,720
he had a long conversation about his

309
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:40,000
time

310
00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:42,000
involved in ufos working for the defense

311
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:43,519
intelligence staff and i i've

312
00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:45,760
interviewed people who work for the i-55

313
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,320
in the 1960s and 1970s it's no big deal

314
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:50,560
some of them won't talk others will

315
00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:51,360
um

316
00:11:55,030 --> 00:11:52,800
obviously because they're concerned

317
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:55,040
about all the other um spooky stuff that

318
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:56,720
they were involved in uh but this guy

319
00:12:00,949 --> 00:11:58,720
was quite open and i i i was just

320
00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:00,959
talking to him in general about ufos and

321
00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:02,720
i just at one point

322
00:12:06,310 --> 00:12:05,360
um i just said um

323
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:06,320
what's

324
00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:08,000
what case is there any case that like

325
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:10,240
sticks in your mind as being the most

326
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:12,240
unusual or strange while she was doing

327
00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:13,600
that job and he said oh yeah there was

328
00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:15,839
that occasion in scotland and two young

329
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:18,639
lads were out on the moors and i won't

330
00:12:23,750 --> 00:12:20,000
say what he said that they were doing

331
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:23,760
but he they captured something on camera

332
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:25,120
one in a million chance they're in the

333
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:26,560
wrong place at the wrong time and this

334
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:28,800
thing appeared on and he said this

335
00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:30,959
without me asking him about the calving

336
00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:33,040
case and then immediately i thought he's

337
00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:35,040
talking about calvin

338
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:38,160
and and i i asked him some questions

339
00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:40,560
about it and i said well you know

340
00:12:45,030 --> 00:12:43,120
so what was it and he said well i i i

341
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:45,040
can't tell you what it was but we knew

342
00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:47,279
what it was and it wasn't anything to do

343
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:50,000
with aliens it was an american secret

344
00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:51,680
reconnaissance aircraft it was being

345
00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:54,720
escorted by a british and american jets

346
00:12:57,829 --> 00:12:55,600
but

347
00:13:00,069 --> 00:12:57,839
it was obvious talking to him and asking

348
00:13:02,389 --> 00:13:00,079
questions about it that um that they

349
00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:02,399
didn't know that initially

350
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:04,240
that they had to do a full investigation

351
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:05,760
and the americans wouldn't admit it and

352
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:06,880
they got to the stage where they

353
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:09,360
actually actually when well

354
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:11,600
i think a group of them shared that the

355
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:12,959
image was shared with the with the

356
00:13:16,389 --> 00:13:14,560
american intelligence agencies and there

357
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:16,399
was an actual meeting or conference or

358
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:18,560
something in in washington where both

359
00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:20,959
the british and american intelligence

360
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,120
agencies scrutinized the photograph and

361
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:25,200
at that point someone must have said put

362
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:26,480
their hand up and yeah it was one of

363
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:27,760
ours sort of thing

364
00:13:32,710 --> 00:13:30,079
but obviously they hadn't notified the

365
00:13:34,949 --> 00:13:32,720
british authorities officially and all

366
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:34,959
this may seem far-fetched and people

367
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:36,399
might say well

368
00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:37,680
where's your evidence for this it's just

369
00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:40,160
anecdotal who is this person but it

370
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:41,920
suddenly dawned on me that i'd actually

371
00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:43,680
got um

372
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:45,360
written proof of this because back in

373
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:48,000
2007 i'd put in a freedom of information

374
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:49,279
act request

375
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:52,000
um to the ufo desk the last ufo desk

376
00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:54,639
officer paul webb um basically for any

377
00:13:59,110 --> 00:13:56,560
any documents that got on aurora now

378
00:14:02,310 --> 00:13:59,120
aurora was this fabled hypersonic spy

379
00:14:05,189 --> 00:14:02,320
plane that the scotsman had alleged was

380
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:05,199
flying around at that time and he sent

381
00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:07,839
me um four or five documents that

382
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:10,720
effectively say it confirms what i was

383
00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:12,639
told and i he didn't register with me

384
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:13,920
straight away

385
00:14:18,949 --> 00:14:16,399
um basically um there was this huge

386
00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:18,959
high-level uh meltdown between britain

387
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:22,240
and the americans in i think it was 1992

388
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:23,760
after they sent the photograph to the

389
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:25,360
americans because the americans assumed

390
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:26,800
it was a british

391
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:28,880
stealth aircraft that had been

392
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,600
photographed that basically we developed

393
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,839
something stealing their stealth

394
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:35,760
technology and we're flying it around

395
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:38,160
without telling them

396
00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:40,079
you can't make it all and and i

397
00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:42,880
confirmed this with the guy who was

398
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:44,560
the british heritage

399
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:47,920
at the um washington dc simon baldwin

400
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:50,079
who's a former v bomber

401
00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:53,120
pilot and i rang him up and he was yeah

402
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:54,800
i can't remember the photograph he said

403
00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:56,560
but i remember being called in to the

404
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:59,120
pentagon by a three-star general who was

405
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:00,959
absolutely fuming after he saw the

406
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,959
photograph and the thing is what had

407
00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:04,800
happened was the british intelligence

408
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,720
i.e di-55 had sent it to the cia the cia

409
00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:10,240
had sent it to the pentagon without

410
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:11,920
telling the pentagon that the source was

411
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:13,040
britain

412
00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:15,360
and they assumed it was some kind of

413
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:16,800
photograph that had been taken by

414
00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:19,040
americans or something i don't know

415
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:20,560
anyway so

416
00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:22,800
you can see how complex this gets

417
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:24,399
yeah we haven't even got onto the main

418
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:26,000
meat of the story

419
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:28,720
no absolutely and this is where matthew

420
00:15:32,629 --> 00:15:30,880
comes in because matthew had been making

421
00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:32,639
his own inquiries and about this stage

422
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:34,399
he dropped me a line on email and then

423
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:36,639
we started talking and one thing led to

424
00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:38,639
another

425
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,560
yeah yeah it's uh

426
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:42,720
i i was unaware of a blissfully unaware

427
00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:45,040
of all of most of what basically uh

428
00:15:51,269 --> 00:15:47,839
david's just run through um and i came

429
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:51,279
across this in april 2021

430
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:53,600
and when i saw started to see these

431
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:55,040
tabloid articles

432
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:57,839
about this huge extension

433
00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:00,320
to the closure period for

434
00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:03,519
the calvin file and i didn't really know

435
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:06,320
much about it prior to that but it just

436
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:08,560
it just seemed astonishing just you know

437
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:10,800
greatly excessive why would you need to

438
00:16:17,230 --> 00:16:12,800
conceal something for

439
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:17,240
uh like 54 years i think it was 2022 to

440
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:18,800
2076.

441
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:20,160
um and

442
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:22,399
all the articles were very um hyperbolic

443
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:24,639
you know it was like or the best ufo

444
00:16:29,749 --> 00:16:27,440
photograph ever taken um and we've got

445
00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:29,759
this grainy black and white

446
00:16:33,269 --> 00:16:31,839
photocopy of the facts you know of a

447
00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:33,279
drawing and you know all that kind of

448
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:34,000
thing

449
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,720
um and they all sort of

450
00:16:41,189 --> 00:16:38,560
uh alleged or hinted that the

451
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:41,199
photographs were in the file um and

452
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,959
david clark's name was prominent in the

453
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:44,399
in the article so i just happened to

454
00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:46,000
message him and said

455
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:48,320
you know is this any of this true or

456
00:16:52,069 --> 00:16:50,160
what what bits of it are true and david

457
00:16:53,189 --> 00:16:52,079
then proceeded to give me the story and

458
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:53,199
say you know

459
00:16:57,509 --> 00:16:55,440
parts are in parts aren't um

460
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:57,519
and they've been um

461
00:17:01,189 --> 00:16:59,920
the the photographs were not in the file

462
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:01,199
that was the that was the first key

463
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:04,240
element and then the second one was that

464
00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:06,640
all that's in the file that's redacted

465
00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:08,240
and being concealed

466
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:09,199
after

467
00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:11,679
uh an approach by the mod to the

468
00:17:17,029 --> 00:17:14,160
national archives um they they actually

469
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:17,039
went and uh requested this this

470
00:17:21,189 --> 00:17:18,880
additional closure period

471
00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:21,199
are the names of

472
00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:22,559
the witness

473
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:24,559
and the raf

474
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:25,760
uh

475
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:27,760
press officer that he spoke to

476
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:30,320
and that again sort of just stuck in the

477
00:17:33,430 --> 00:17:31,679
crawl is just like

478
00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:33,440
the raf press spokesman would have been

479
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:36,240
public facing individual for a start so

480
00:17:41,110 --> 00:17:38,080
his name would have been known far and

481
00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:41,120
wide um and then after a period of 30

482
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:44,080
years you know why shouldn't the name of

483
00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:47,200
this witness uh be revealed just like

484
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,440
almost every other previous witness

485
00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:51,039
because like david said when you go back

486
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:53,679
and look at the files released pre-2000

487
00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:55,120
there's the names of

488
00:18:00,630 --> 00:17:58,160
anyone and everyone housewives um dog

489
00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:00,640
walkers even children these and home

490
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,559
addresses you know such and such was a

491
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:04,559
school boy he was at this school this

492
00:18:07,990 --> 00:18:06,640
was his home address and he saw a ufo

493
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:08,000
and stuff like that and it's just all

494
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:10,000
there and you just thought well why

495
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:12,000
can't this one be revealed then you sort

496
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:12,960
of

497
00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:14,960
thought well maybe there's something

498
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:16,799
specific about this and that was what

499
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:18,480
first intrigued me and then it was

500
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:22,080
revealed that actually on mass they are

501
00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:24,000
restricting um

502
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:26,480
these pieces of purse information

503
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:28,720
under section 40 of the so you know

504
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:30,240
ironically entitled freedom of

505
00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:31,919
information yeah

506
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:33,360
so

507
00:18:37,990 --> 00:18:34,960
thanks to like all the additions that

508
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:38,000
we've had with like um the gdpr and the

509
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:40,559
dpa and so on the

510
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:42,960
the sort of the logic has been twisted

511
00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:44,799
um such that

512
00:18:49,270 --> 00:18:47,600
personal privacy is has been elevated by

513
00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:49,280
these organizations

514
00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:51,919
um to like the the naples ultra and

515
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:54,160
nothing is more

516
00:19:00,310 --> 00:18:56,880
sacrosanct than not

517
00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:00,320
releasing these people's identities for

518
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:02,080
the fear that

519
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:03,600
they it's not even a fear that they will

520
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:05,760
really become distressed at the the

521
00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:07,440
nature of the contact that just they

522
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:10,160
will be contacted that alone is reason

523
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:11,039
enough

524
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:13,120
not to permit their names to be

525
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:14,640
released

526
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:16,080
and i've taken it all the way to the

527
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:17,840
information commissioner's office and

528
00:19:20,549 --> 00:19:19,360
i've made you know

529
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:20,559
multiple

530
00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:23,600
cogent coherent arguments and the amount

531
00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:25,600
evidence you present it does not matter

532
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:26,480
because

533
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:28,160
despite saying that i'd you know done

534
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:29,600
research and

535
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,400
uh in the entire sort of modern history

536
00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,480
of ufology since the kenneth arnold

537
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:36,480
sightings in 47

538
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:38,480
not one person

539
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:40,000
has ever

540
00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:42,240
complained officially to the that i can

541
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:44,640
find evidence of to the police to the

542
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:46,240
press council to the press complaints

543
00:19:50,870 --> 00:19:48,080
commission or to ipso the all those

544
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:50,880
three bodies governing uh press conduct

545
00:19:56,230 --> 00:19:53,520
not one person has ever complained of

546
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:56,240
press intrusion

547
00:19:59,350 --> 00:19:58,080
the other point to make here matthew is

548
00:20:01,750 --> 00:19:59,360
the fact that at the time the

549
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:01,760
photographs were taken um the the

550
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,400
photographers sent the photographs to

551
00:20:09,029 --> 00:20:06,400
the scottish daily record which is one

552
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:09,039
of the best read newspapers in scotland

553
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:10,400
or was at the time i don't know what the

554
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:11,760
circulation was but it must have been

555
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:13,440
about one and a half million one and a

556
00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:15,679
half million now

557
00:20:19,669 --> 00:20:17,520
how how is it how could it be possibly

558
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:19,679
be argued that that person was was uh

559
00:20:24,310 --> 00:20:22,000
was wanted to protect their privacy you

560
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:24,320
send something to a newspaper you expect

561
00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:26,000
it to be used i mean yeah i know they're

562
00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:28,640
making this special argument now that oh

563
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:30,400
we can't assume that because they wanted

564
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:32,080
publicity at the time that they want it

565
00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:34,159
now but i mean that is going to

566
00:20:37,909 --> 00:20:36,400
ridiculous extremes

567
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:37,919
you know if they wanted privacy they

568
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:39,440
should never have contacted the scottish

569
00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:42,400
daily record in the first place yeah

570
00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:43,840
yeah yeah

571
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:46,240
and it doesn't matter what what sorry it

572
00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:47,919
just it doesn't matter what you say

573
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:49,679
because this is it's not an argument

574
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:51,840
it's not an evidence-based argument it's

575
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:54,080
not and also they're frightened of a

576
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,919
precedent that if they allow one name

577
00:21:00,230 --> 00:20:57,360
out then they're gonna have to rely on

578
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:00,240
all the rest of them yeah so

579
00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:03,039
that was right about april of 2021 when

580
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:04,960
you and matthew first started speaking

581
00:21:08,549 --> 00:21:06,240
so let's just move it forward a few

582
00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:08,559
months to the first i guess major

583
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:11,120
breakthrough yes well matthew's um hit

584
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:12,320
the nail on the head here because he

585
00:21:16,149 --> 00:21:14,320
said not only the name of the witnesses

586
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,159
being redacted but also the name of the

587
00:21:20,149 --> 00:21:18,000
raf press officer

588
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:20,159
as he quite correctly said

589
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:21,760
how can you redact the name of someone

590
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:23,360
who is a civil servant who is in the

591
00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:24,880
public domain who is speaking to the

592
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:27,200
press every day so at that point i

593
00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:28,480
thought right well if they won't give us

594
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:30,480
the name of the um of the witness then

595
00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:31,840
we'll find the press officer because

596
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:33,360
it's not going to be very difficult to

597
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:35,840
track him down so in fact he was

598
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:42,470
but uh being a sort of a shoe in the

599
00:21:47,510 --> 00:21:45,039
shoe in the door type reporter who

600
00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:47,520
who doesn't want to let things go i'd i

601
00:21:50,789 --> 00:21:49,200
pursued it and

602
00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:50,799
i actually originally found the guy who

603
00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:52,480
did the job after

604
00:21:57,830 --> 00:21:55,280
um the press officer whose name is craig

605
00:21:59,830 --> 00:21:57,840
lindsay and so eventually which we found

606
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:59,840
the name craig lindsay because he'd been

607
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:02,000
obviously doing the job for i've got i

608
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:03,919
think a good 12 years something like

609
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:06,480
that so he'd spoken to the press about

610
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:08,240
dozens of different stories he had the

611
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:10,640
lock a bit disaster it even done other

612
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:12,559
ufo stories like the there was a there

613
00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:14,480
was a case in the um outer ebitdas in

614
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:17,200
the 1996 where an object was seen

615
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:18,960
crashing into the north sea and there

616
00:22:23,029 --> 00:22:20,720
was a big ac rescue

617
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:23,039
um operation and he he was in charge of

618
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:25,280
that so he dealt with loads of ufo

619
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:27,280
incidents and and

620
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:28,080
it's

621
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:30,880
to this day the the first conversation i

622
00:22:35,430 --> 00:22:32,799
had with him on on the phone

623
00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:35,440
um it sticks in my mind i i think we

624
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:38,080
contacted him via social media initially

625
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:40,080
and he basically came back to me and i

626
00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:42,080
said to him i'd like to talk to you

627
00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:44,480
about something that happened in 1990

628
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:46,080
and and i think he must have given me

629
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:48,400
his phone number so so again back to

630
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:50,159
this thing about privacy he was more

631
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:52,000
than happy to talk to us he had no

632
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:53,200
problem at all

633
00:22:57,830 --> 00:22:56,240
um and i remember the first few words he

634
00:22:59,830 --> 00:22:57,840
said he said i know what you're calling

635
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:59,840
me about and i said do you

636
00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:00,960
how do you know what i'm calling you

637
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:02,320
about and he says you're calling me

638
00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:03,919
about that ufo photograph aren't you

639
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:05,760
from calvin

640
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:07,840
i've been waiting for someone to call me

641
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:10,799
about that for 30 years

642
00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:12,880
and you're the first person and i'm the

643
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:15,120
first person to do it so despite all the

644
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:17,280
publicity despite all the stuff

645
00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:19,120
that nick pope's been pumping out about

646
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:21,360
this despite all the the articles in the

647
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:24,000
in the sun not a single person had made

648
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:26,240
that connection and and phoned him up

649
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:28,320
and asked him about it he was the one he

650
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:30,240
was the key basically that turned in the

651
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:33,520
lock that has unlocked this 32 year old

652
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:36,400
cover up which is what it is yeah yeah

653
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:38,559
so let's talk talk about you know you

654
00:23:43,669 --> 00:23:41,279
obviously continued con conversing with

655
00:23:45,269 --> 00:23:43,679
with craig so let's talk about the first

656
00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:45,279
piece of evidence that he provided you

657
00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:46,480
with

658
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:50,000
yeah right well basically he said yeah i

659
00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:51,760
can't deny the fact that i was the

660
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:53,600
person um who was

661
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:55,679
the the scottish daily record first

662
00:23:59,269 --> 00:23:56,960
contacted

663
00:24:01,110 --> 00:23:59,279
um about this story and basically he

664
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:01,120
said that um

665
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:02,880
he got a call out of the blue at the

666
00:24:08,470 --> 00:24:05,760
time he was based at raf petrievi castle

667
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:08,480
which is a huge um uh we we went there

668
00:24:12,710 --> 00:24:09,600
vinnie didn't we

669
00:24:14,310 --> 00:24:12,720
recently when we met craig um it's it's

670
00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:14,320
block of flats now but at the time it

671
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:17,039
was like this um maritime hq where there

672
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:19,840
was nato there was the royal navy there

673
00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:21,440
was the raf

674
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:23,840
and he um was working for the i think

675
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:25,760
it's the air officer for scotland and

676
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:27,360
northern ireland it's quite a big quite

677
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:29,039
a responsible job

678
00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:31,600
and one day the phone rings and it's the

679
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:33,200
picture editor at the daily record and

680
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:35,279
he said um we've got this fantastic ufo

681
00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:37,360
photograph that's our exclusive

682
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:39,039
uh we're gonna run it and we'd like a

683
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:41,520
comment and craig said well uh

684
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:42,240
what

685
00:24:45,110 --> 00:24:43,840
how can i comment i need to see the

686
00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:45,120
photograph and he said well there's

687
00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:47,039
actually six photographs

688
00:24:50,549 --> 00:24:48,640
from the negatives that we've been sent

689
00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:50,559
and if you want i'll pick out the best

690
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:52,240
one and send it to you

691
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:53,760
so

692
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:56,080
he put the phone down um a few days

693
00:25:01,830 --> 00:24:59,679
later by courier and the record had sent

694
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:01,840
it by train

695
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:04,640
like a an envelope um

696
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:07,520
stiff cardboard envelope came by train

697
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:09,600
from their headquarters in glasgow to

698
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:12,000
edinburgh it was picked up by a

699
00:25:16,549 --> 00:25:13,840
photographer at their edinburgh office

700
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:16,559
and couriered to raf petrievi castle

701
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:18,720
that's how important it was and he

702
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:20,159
opened it up

703
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,440
and

704
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:23,679
there was a print inside the the

705
00:25:29,669 --> 00:25:26,400
envelope and the print um i think eight

706
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:29,679
by three um color print or appeared to

707
00:25:33,510 --> 00:25:31,840
be color um showing this you know

708
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:33,520
amazing sort of

709
00:25:37,269 --> 00:25:35,360
sharp image of this diamond shaped

710
00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:37,279
object with a with a harrier jump jack

711
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:39,200
sort of turning behind it

712
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:41,200
um and you can see uh he said you could

713
00:25:45,029 --> 00:25:43,520
see a line of like a wire fence below

714
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:45,039
and some overhanging trees and this

715
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:46,720
these are the details when he was

716
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:48,159
telling me this i was thinking oh my god

717
00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:50,320
this is the uh this is the image the one

718
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:52,400
we've not we've yet to see

719
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:54,640
and he said yeah um and so what i did

720
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:57,679
was i photocopied it i did about three

721
00:26:01,990 --> 00:25:59,760
photocopies because um i phoned up the

722
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:02,000
ufo desk spoke to the guy's contact

723
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:03,679
there who we've got to assume his own

724
00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:06,720
our top at the time and he said that

725
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:08,640
they weren't particularly bothered

726
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:11,039
another ufo photograph another fake sort

727
00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:12,000
of thing

728
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:14,000
can you send it us down and he said well

729
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:15,600
i'll photocopy it for you so he went

730
00:26:19,909 --> 00:26:18,080
photocopied it in the office above

731
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:19,919
did about three photocopies and

732
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:21,200
obviously if you're trying to photograph

733
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:23,440
something that's very contrasty

734
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:26,640
it's difficult and don't forget uh folks

735
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:29,039
this is 1990. this is before

736
00:26:34,149 --> 00:26:31,919
uh digital cameras this is before um all

737
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:34,159
the technological wonders that we've got

738
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:36,320
now so basically he had

739
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:39,760
a fax machine do you remember them

740
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:42,000
he photocopied the image

741
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:45,200
and faxed it through um to um the ufo

742
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:47,039
desk and he said he had a chat with the

743
00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:48,960
people in the office and gets down back

744
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:51,039
down to his office and the phone's

745
00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:52,640
ringing off the hook and it's the guy

746
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:54,559
from the ufo desk and he's obviously

747
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:56,000
like you know wetting himself because

748
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:57,919
he'd seen this image and

749
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:58,960
it was like

750
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:00,640
can you contact the the photographers

751
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:02,320
can you get us the negatives and he was

752
00:27:07,190 --> 00:27:04,320
like taking a bite yeah yeah i'll do me

753
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:07,200
best so we phoned the daily record

754
00:27:11,190 --> 00:27:09,279
um spoke to the guy on picture desk and

755
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:11,200
said you know can you can you send me

756
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:13,120
the negatives to the ministry of defense

757
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:14,960
and this is where where i as a

758
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:17,200
journalist sort of start recoiling

759
00:27:20,310 --> 00:27:18,399
because the guy on picture just said

760
00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:20,320
yeah oh no problem yes we'll send them

761
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:22,240
to the ministry of defense

762
00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:24,640
um and obviously

763
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:26,799
that's what exactly what he did sent

764
00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:28,080
them to the minister of defense and

765
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:30,159
craig was asked to phone

766
00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:31,600
get them get the name of the

767
00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:34,080
photographer which he got um from this

768
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,799
guy and phone him up and write up what

769
00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:38,880
he said and he basically typed up this

770
00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:42,399
bad story faxed it to the ufo desk in

771
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:44,799
london and was told leave it with us you

772
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:46,799
know don't do anything else after that

773
00:27:50,789 --> 00:27:48,399
so he didn't do anything else he just

774
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:50,799
waited for the story to appear no story

775
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:51,679
which he

776
00:27:57,269 --> 00:27:54,720
even to this day he's 83 years old now

777
00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:57,279
he cannot fathom why they didn't use the

778
00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:00,159
story anyway later that year this is the

779
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:02,880
final bit of the saga um he headed down

780
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:05,039
to london he went on a regular monthly

781
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:07,440
meeting all the press officers emod main

782
00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:09,440
building and because craig is quite a

783
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,600
you know a sort of he likes to know um

784
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:13,440
information he doesn't like to let

785
00:28:16,310 --> 00:28:14,559
things go

786
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:16,320
um he thought right well while i'm here

787
00:28:20,389 --> 00:28:18,880
i'll nip upstairs to visit our friend in

788
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:20,399
the ufo desk and see how they're going

789
00:28:25,269 --> 00:28:22,640
on with the uh with the with the calvin

790
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:25,279
photographs open the door of the and you

791
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:27,120
know what's coming here open the door of

792
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:30,000
the office on the wall massive blow up

793
00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:33,120
poster three foot wide of the best print

794
00:28:36,549 --> 00:28:34,559
the one that he'd sent

795
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:36,559
to london and

796
00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:38,640
he he basically

797
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:40,159
tried to find out what was going on but

798
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:41,520
obviously they won't tell any much other

799
00:28:45,029 --> 00:28:42,880
than the fact they'd sent it to their

800
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:45,039
top photographic analysts who hadn't

801
00:28:50,549 --> 00:28:47,360
been able to explain it he questioned

802
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:50,559
the um the ufo desk fella

803
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:52,320
and basically said what's going on with

804
00:28:56,950 --> 00:28:55,200
the ufo image and basically said we've

805
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:56,960
sent it to our top experts and they

806
00:29:00,710 --> 00:28:58,320
haven't been able to explain it all we

807
00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:00,720
can say is it's definitely not a fake

808
00:29:05,110 --> 00:29:02,159
and it's quite funny because craig

809
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:05,120
actually used the um uh paraphrase the

810
00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:08,000
the line from the the end of the film

811
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:09,520
raiders of the lost ark when we were

812
00:29:12,549 --> 00:29:10,720
talking to him about this you know the

813
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:12,559
bit where they've got the um

814
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:14,320
the ark of the covenant and the wheeling

815
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:17,120
it off into the big warehouse and i

816
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:18,720
think it's is it um

817
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:20,240
harrison ford or the other guy who's

818
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,640
talking to the cia and they're saying

819
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:24,399
this is really important you know you

820
00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:26,159
and it's like who who's looking at it

821
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,919
and it was like our top people we've got

822
00:29:30,470 --> 00:29:29,360
our top people

823
00:29:35,269 --> 00:29:30,480
top men

824
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:35,279
basically um

825
00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:36,799
as far as craig was confirmed i mean

826
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:38,320
this is quite a story that he was

827
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:39,679
telling

828
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:41,360
and as far as he was concerned that was

829
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:42,960
the that was the end of it

830
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:44,720
and and and as i was talking to him i

831
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:46,720
sort of said well um you know have you

832
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:48,559
have you kept anything did you keep it

833
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:50,159
did you keep it one of these photocopies

834
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:52,720
and you know yourself well yeah actually

835
00:29:55,830 --> 00:29:54,480
yeah i've still got the

836
00:30:00,310 --> 00:29:55,840
envelope

837
00:30:02,230 --> 00:30:00,320
daily record sent and i i've got

838
00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:02,240
somewhere i've got the the photocopies

839
00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:03,440
that i took

840
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:06,399
and obviously i was sort of have you

841
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:09,919
could you go and find them please

842
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:11,919
um what had happened was when he retired

843
00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:14,399
in 1999 um

844
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:16,159
it turned out he'd still got the

845
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:18,880
original print that the daily record had

846
00:30:22,789 --> 00:30:21,120
sent him which he kept in his desk and

847
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,799
he'd actually carried it around with him

848
00:30:26,310 --> 00:30:24,480
for years and was fond of sort of

849
00:30:28,149 --> 00:30:26,320
pulling it out of his briefcase and

850
00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:28,159
showing people what do you think of this

851
00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:29,360
you know when he was like out with

852
00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:30,880
different raf

853
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:33,600
people in scotland um and he and when

854
00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:34,640
he'd retired he thought well i'm not

855
00:30:36,789 --> 00:30:36,080
chucking it away i'm going to keep it

856
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:36,799
and

857
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:38,320
even though no one else has approached

858
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:41,039
me he'd actually bought or read nick

859
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:42,640
pope's book and he'd seen what nick pope

860
00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:44,720
wrote about it and thought

861
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:46,960
well why is he just mentioned in passing

862
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:49,279
this is an amazing story and why has no

863
00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:51,120
one called me about it all these years

864
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:53,760
so he was like shall i throw it away or

865
00:30:58,710 --> 00:30:56,240
shall i keep it and thank god he decided

866
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:58,720
to keep it because not only it turned it

867
00:31:01,990 --> 00:31:00,000
turned out not only had he kept the

868
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:02,000
photocopies and the envelope but he'd

869
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:02,880
actually

870
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:06,159
put the photograph inside this huge

871
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:08,640
great aircraft of the world volume

872
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:09,440
um

873
00:31:14,549 --> 00:31:12,559
and that's where it had sat for 20 years

874
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:14,559
until i phoned him up

875
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:16,320
yeah so do you want to take a look at

876
00:31:20,549 --> 00:31:19,360
one of the photocopies yeah

877
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:20,559
let's have a look at that this is what

878
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:23,840
we got to see first this was uh yeah so

879
00:31:27,269 --> 00:31:25,760
that's yeah

880
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:27,279
that's what you got first yeah and

881
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:29,840
that's not a bad um to say that that's a

882
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:33,200
photocopy of a photograph that he made

883
00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:35,519
back in 1990 i think it's pretty it's

884
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:36,799
pretty good that it survived in that

885
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:38,399
condition

886
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:40,159
yeah i thought it was when i saw this

887
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:42,720
first when you first last year i was i

888
00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:45,679
was very excited to see this

889
00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:47,440
and let's think about it all we had was

890
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:50,399
that cropped image of the ufo and the

891
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:52,960
carrier before this so it was like that

892
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:54,000
yeah

893
00:32:03,029 --> 00:32:00,880
and depth of uh you know with the fence

894
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:03,039
and the tree and stuff so so this is the

895
00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:05,360
part this is a good point for giles to

896
00:32:10,630 --> 00:32:08,320
to um to come in because um

897
00:32:13,029 --> 00:32:10,640
giles had seen a lot of the um stories

898
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:13,039
about this and i'd put a message on the

899
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:15,279
the the pitlochry

900
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:17,200
facebook page appealing for anyone who

901
00:32:20,710 --> 00:32:18,559
knew anything about the story to come

902
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:20,720
forward and i think this is where giles

903
00:32:24,789 --> 00:32:22,559
got in touch with with us this little

904
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:24,799
sort of team and became part of the team

905
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:26,960
and giles was naturally living in the

906
00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:29,120
area keen to find where this photograph

907
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:30,720
was taken because obviously it's a huge

908
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:32,399
big deal

909
00:32:35,909 --> 00:32:34,559
yeah indeed just going back to the the

910
00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:35,919
photocopy

911
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:37,120
it's um

912
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:39,360
it's genuine in my mind for the fact

913
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:41,600
that it's clearly an overcast

914
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:45,039
summer's day which sums up scotland so

915
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:46,720
there's something genuine straight away

916
00:32:51,029 --> 00:32:48,640
there's no sunshine there's no glare

917
00:32:54,549 --> 00:32:51,039
clearly or anything like that

918
00:32:56,950 --> 00:32:54,559
yeah as i said it's it's it's a very um

919
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:56,960
unusual mystery it's it's a mystery in

920
00:33:01,269 --> 00:32:58,799
the area there's a few people that know

921
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:01,279
about it most people

922
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:03,120
uh have never heard anything about it

923
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,559
and i'm talking people who've lived here

924
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:06,880
all their lives um when i've raised the

925
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:08,320
subject

926
00:33:12,389 --> 00:33:10,640
they knew nothing of it but um

927
00:33:13,350 --> 00:33:12,399
now as i think i've said before it's not

928
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:13,360
really

929
00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:14,960
anything that would surprise me

930
00:33:17,509 --> 00:33:16,720
considering where we are you know you

931
00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:17,519
don't

932
00:33:23,909 --> 00:33:21,519
see calvin unless you're in calvin you

933
00:33:26,070 --> 00:33:23,919
can't see calvin from half a mile away

934
00:33:27,909 --> 00:33:26,080
it's at the bottom of a glen

935
00:33:29,909 --> 00:33:27,919
and you only see it when you actually

936
00:33:32,389 --> 00:33:29,919
physically walk into it or drive into it

937
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:32,399
so we're in a very secluded part of

938
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:33,760
scotland here even though we're on the

939
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:35,039
a9 it's

940
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:37,200
it's said it's very much snakes through

941
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:38,559
the glen here

942
00:33:41,909 --> 00:33:40,559
and um it would it would also be very

943
00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:41,919
quiet on a

944
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,640
on an august evening back in 1990

945
00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:46,320
there's not a lot of traffic comes up

946
00:33:52,149 --> 00:33:48,159
through the center of the highlands the

947
00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:52,159
odd hgv and that's about it really

948
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:53,200
yeah so

949
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:55,679
i've got some images um now these images

950
00:34:00,070 --> 00:33:56,640
um

951
00:34:03,630 --> 00:34:00,080
were from a journey that you took up to

952
00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:03,640
to pitt lockery david and mcgiles and

953
00:34:14,149 --> 00:34:12,069
with some friends of mine and i managed

954
00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:14,159
it was perfect because i arranged to

955
00:34:18,790 --> 00:34:15,040
meet

956
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:18,800
craig um at giles's home in um

957
00:34:23,430 --> 00:34:21,440
near uh calvin it's about five miles

958
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:23,440
from calvin

959
00:34:31,589 --> 00:34:25,280
we're not even a mile just not even a

960
00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:36,550
so it was a happy coincidence hill

961
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:39,030
before before we met craig the day

962
00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:42,399
before um me and giles sort of giles has

963
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:44,639
already done a lot of exploration

964
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:46,320
of the area um

965
00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:48,000
but giles said right i'm going to take

966
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:49,760
you to where i think the photograph was

967
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:51,040
taken

968
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:53,440
so this this is the

969
00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:54,879
yeah obviously

970
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:56,240
there wasn't much of a

971
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,280
clue from the the print at that stage

972
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:01,440
you had the the foreground but nothing

973
00:35:05,829 --> 00:35:03,760
really in the background unfortunately

974
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:05,839
so we had basically a fencing to work to

975
00:35:10,470 --> 00:35:08,480
work with and it was it was the spacing

976
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:10,480
of the fencing that interested me

977
00:35:13,589 --> 00:35:11,440
because

978
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:13,599
the fencing isn't replaced really up

979
00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:14,560
here

980
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:16,160
um

981
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:18,880
fencing from 150 years ago is still

982
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:21,040
prominent up here so 30 years is is

983
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:24,560
nothing really so anything from 1990

984
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:27,680
would probably still be around now

985
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:30,800
as i said it's and it's not really um

986
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:33,760
practice to to take fencing away up here

987
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:36,560
you just tend to replace it put a line

988
00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:38,560
of fencing in front if you if you needed

989
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,680
to but

990
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:41,520
you know there's been no new fencing up

991
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:44,160
here for a long time so i think i think

992
00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:46,800
this is probably the location which is a

993
00:35:53,670 --> 00:35:48,960
place called strewn point

994
00:36:00,790 --> 00:35:56,150
um probably what half a mile outside of

995
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:02,870
yeah so you can see so we went up there

996
00:36:07,109 --> 00:36:04,960
and when you get through that belt of

997
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:07,119
trees it's got what are the giles are

998
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:08,880
they scott spine

999
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:10,880
oh god no no you're asking yeah i think

1000
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:12,960
so

1001
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:16,960
there's no there's no other trees

1002
00:36:20,790 --> 00:36:18,480
yeah if you think about what that's what

1003
00:36:21,910 --> 00:36:20,800
those two guys told craig they went

1004
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:21,920
through

1005
00:36:24,829 --> 00:36:23,760
like a small water or a belt

1006
00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:24,839
little cops

1007
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:26,720
yeah i mean there were there would have

1008
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:28,480
been a few more trees there at the time

1009
00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:29,920
they've lost a few up there i mean it's

1010
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:32,640
very much open to the elements up there

1011
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:34,240
um they tend to do a lot of you know

1012
00:36:38,150 --> 00:36:36,240
plantations and then they'll clear but i

1013
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:38,160
think this particular cops has been

1014
00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:41,119
there for for centuries so

1015
00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:43,839
was this the west side of calvin or the

1016
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:45,520
east side i don't know i know it the

1017
00:36:51,750 --> 00:36:48,320
road sneaks so there are snakes rather

1018
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:51,760
sort of east west but is it like

1019
00:36:56,230 --> 00:36:54,880
of the village it's just west of just

1020
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:56,240
west of it right

1021
00:36:59,190 --> 00:36:58,000
yeah

1022
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:59,200
but everyone i think i said before

1023
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:00,880
everyone thinks it's north for the

1024
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:03,280
simple reason the a9 is a north-south

1025
00:37:07,270 --> 00:37:05,040
road through scotland but through this

1026
00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:07,280
particular part of the highlands it

1027
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:10,560
it veers on a east west

1028
00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:13,760
um orientation

1029
00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:16,720
and then i think also

1030
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:20,400
so yeah you can see i mean it just yeah

1031
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:22,240
yeah you can imagine kind he's hiding in

1032
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:24,240
those kind of this spot there pointing

1033
00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:26,000
his camera upwards as well so

1034
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,520
unfortunately you're missing some of the

1035
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:28,880
sort of

1036
00:37:32,310 --> 00:37:31,440
profile and the tallest mountain i don't

1037
00:37:34,310 --> 00:37:32,320
know whether you can see it there

1038
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:34,320
because i i went up it a couple of days

1039
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:36,560
later it was she alien which is i think

1040
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:38,320
about three thousand feet

1041
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:40,000
three thousand eight hundred yeah table

1042
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:41,280
yes

1043
00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:44,480
because it's a monroe so yeah it's just

1044
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:46,800
out of shot there but the the in that

1045
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:48,839
image is part of what is the

1046
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:50,960
reconstruction photo

1047
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:54,000
that sort of cops in front of you yeah

1048
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:56,560
is in that picture so

1049
00:38:01,750 --> 00:37:57,599
excellent

1050
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:03,589
and you can kind of see how secluded it

1051
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:05,520
is as well it's just yeah

1052
00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:06,960
yeah this is it this is it you just

1053
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:08,720
wouldn't see anything

1054
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:10,880
this is the athol palace hotel which is

1055
00:38:16,310 --> 00:38:13,839
where craig was convinced that they were

1056
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:16,320
working when he phoned them

1057
00:38:20,870 --> 00:38:18,160
but the problem here is we made

1058
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:20,880
extensive inquiries the we i tracked

1059
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:22,880
down the guy who was the general manager

1060
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:24,079
at the time

1061
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:26,400
um the guy who was the head chef who is

1062
00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:29,040
now the the current general manager and

1063
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:31,119
we also found the receptionist who

1064
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:33,440
worked there from 1985

1065
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:37,760
um to i think about 20 2005 or later

1066
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:40,560
um she would have been the person who if

1067
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:42,320
that she answered the phone this is a

1068
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:44,880
pre-mobile phone don't forget uh she she

1069
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:46,640
would have known about it they all of

1070
00:38:50,550 --> 00:38:47,920
them um

1071
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:50,560
said they they knew nothing about the

1072
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,960
story at all which i found immediately

1073
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:54,480
very very odd

1074
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:55,920
and they didn't they weren't connected

1075
00:39:00,150 --> 00:38:57,760
well she certainly wasn't connected with

1076
00:39:01,829 --> 00:39:00,160
with the general manager and the even if

1077
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:01,839
they were trying to hide something and

1078
00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:04,240
the other people we spoke to there had

1079
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:05,680
no knowledge of it at all i think there

1080
00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:09,040
was one contact that i think matthew got

1081
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:10,720
via facebook who said she vaguely

1082
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:12,720
remembered it being discussed at a disco

1083
00:39:17,109 --> 00:39:14,720
or something at the hotel

1084
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:17,119
um but nothing

1085
00:39:21,430 --> 00:39:19,200
absolutely nothing and you'd think if

1086
00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:21,440
those two guys were working there even

1087
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:23,680
temporarily if something like that had

1088
00:39:26,710 --> 00:39:24,880
happened to them they would have told

1089
00:39:28,470 --> 00:39:26,720
all the other people in the kitchens

1090
00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:28,480
they would certainly the manager would

1091
00:39:32,230 --> 00:39:29,839
have known about it

1092
00:39:35,829 --> 00:39:32,240
um it just didn't make any sense

1093
00:39:38,069 --> 00:39:35,839
okay so um after the um after the the

1094
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:38,079
the bit of a hike that um giles and

1095
00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:41,040
myself made up to strewn point to to do

1096
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:43,760
the to find the location scout around

1097
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:45,760
we'd arranged to meet craig the

1098
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:47,119
following day

1099
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:49,520
craig lindsay he came up from his home

1100
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,160
in in southern scotland

1101
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:54,960
and we had a most entertaining i think

1102
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:57,440
it was a good two and a half hour um

1103
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,200
session question and answer session with

1104
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,960
him where um

1105
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:02,640
basically i asked him to tell the story

1106
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:04,960
and you can hear a clip of him telling

1107
00:40:08,829 --> 00:40:06,880
the story summarized

1108
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:08,839
at some point um

1109
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:12,240
and it came around to the this this bit

1110
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:14,560
about him having actually um kept the

1111
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:16,880
photograph so

1112
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:17,920
well

1113
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:20,240
have you got the photograph and

1114
00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:22,319
he said yes he's here would you like to

1115
00:40:32,230 --> 00:40:28,870
yeah so as you can see uh we were busy

1116
00:40:33,750 --> 00:40:32,240
firing off cameras and he produced the

1117
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:33,760
the original

1118
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:36,560
calvin photograph i either won he'd been

1119
00:40:41,589 --> 00:40:39,359
sent in 1990 by the scottish daily

1120
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:41,599
record so he brought that along

1121
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:43,920
and he brought the envelope that he

1122
00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:45,839
arrived in and the photocopies so he got

1123
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:46,880
them all there and he was quite

1124
00:40:49,829 --> 00:40:48,800
reluctant to part with them at that

1125
00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:49,839
stage

1126
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:52,160
um he was a bit worried about whether

1127
00:40:55,910 --> 00:40:53,760
you know he was sort of subject to the

1128
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:55,920
official secrets act he was also

1129
00:41:01,190 --> 00:40:58,400
concerned about uh data protection

1130
00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:01,200
because on the back of the um

1131
00:41:07,270 --> 00:41:04,400
print was written in bright red letters

1132
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:07,280
um the name of the copyright holder we

1133
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:10,160
presume the name of the photographer and

1134
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:12,160
it says care of scottish daily record

1135
00:41:15,829 --> 00:41:14,160
but he wouldn't let us see the name

1136
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:15,839
and he wouldn't let us get too close to

1137
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:17,839
the photograph but we took some pretty

1138
00:41:26,230 --> 00:41:20,160
good photo photos of him holding the

1139
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:28,390
there we go

1140
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,720
original prince that print like you said

1141
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:32,720
was printed off by the scottish daily

1142
00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:35,520
record at the time at the time

1143
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:38,560
and sent to him uh sent to craig arya

1144
00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:40,079
petrievi castle

1145
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:42,240
um and craig showed it a few people to

1146
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:44,720
get an opinion he took a photocopy of

1147
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:47,280
that original image and faxed it to the

1148
00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:48,960
ministry of defense that's then that's

1149
00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:51,280
what then led to the massive sort of

1150
00:41:55,829 --> 00:41:53,920
investigation but no one came back to

1151
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:55,839
him he was told basically keep your

1152
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:57,920
mouth shut forget about it don't talk to

1153
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:00,800
anyone about it but no one thought to

1154
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:03,280
ask him have you kept the original print

1155
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:06,480
and he had and locked it away thankfully

1156
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:10,079
for for us and for uh you know history

1157
00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:12,640
yeah he he saved it he i've got to say i

1158
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:15,280
think craig is a hero you know he's he's

1159
00:42:20,069 --> 00:42:18,400
um he's done everyone a huge favor by

1160
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:20,079
you know sort of thinking this is

1161
00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:21,520
something really significant and

1162
00:42:27,030 --> 00:42:23,119
important and i need to keep it for the

1163
00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:30,150
and that's him with the original emerald

1164
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:32,240
again is i mean i know the photo is

1165
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:33,680
amazing but i just think having the

1166
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:35,920
envelope it came in as well very clearly

1167
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:38,480
marked scottish daily record and you can

1168
00:42:43,030 --> 00:42:40,800
see they obviously took a lot of um care

1169
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:43,040
that this this was this was um sent by

1170
00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:45,520
train over to over to their

1171
00:42:48,710 --> 00:42:46,960
um

1172
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:48,720
over to their edinburgh office and the

1173
00:42:53,589 --> 00:42:50,880
edinburgh photographer whose name is on

1174
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:53,599
there um i've spoken to him um he

1175
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:55,200
doesn't remember anything about it but

1176
00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:56,560
he was obviously

1177
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:57,440
sent

1178
00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:59,359
physically to carry it then and deliver

1179
00:43:03,990 --> 00:43:01,760
it to petrievi castle which is where

1180
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:04,000
craig received it

1181
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:06,000
and you also interviewed him while you

1182
00:43:10,309 --> 00:43:07,920
were there now that was quite a

1183
00:43:12,470 --> 00:43:10,319
substantial interview but um i have

1184
00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:12,480
edited it down to to kind of highlight

1185
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:14,480
the main points from the interview so

1186
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:17,200
we'll take a listen to that now

1187
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:19,920
okay so just say who you are and

1188
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:21,680
how you got involved in this craig

1189
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:24,640
lindsay i was a public relations offer

1190
00:43:28,630 --> 00:43:26,880
to the raf in scotland on the staff of

1191
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:28,640
the air office of scotland and northern

1192
00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:32,000
ireland i was in the office one morning

1193
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:34,400
phone writing picked it up and it was

1194
00:43:37,109 --> 00:43:35,680
somebody on the picture desk at the

1195
00:43:39,910 --> 00:43:37,119
daily record

1196
00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:39,920
saying that they'd got a story from a

1197
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:41,920
couple of guys who'd seen something in

1198
00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:43,200
the air

1199
00:43:47,109 --> 00:43:44,160
at

1200
00:43:48,309 --> 00:43:47,119
calvin and with the raf care to comment

1201
00:43:49,349 --> 00:43:48,319
on it

1202
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:49,359
and i said

1203
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:51,040
well not really because i don't know

1204
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:52,800
what you're what i'm being asked to

1205
00:43:57,190 --> 00:43:54,960
comment on what does it look like he

1206
00:43:59,910 --> 00:43:57,200
said um i said well what about sending

1207
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:59,920
me a photograph a print he said

1208
00:44:04,069 --> 00:44:00,880
they had

1209
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:04,079
come in with six negatives

1210
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:05,520
and um

1211
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:07,440
you know it looked convincing so they

1212
00:44:12,390 --> 00:44:10,400
wanted the ref to comment so

1213
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:12,400
i said well what about a print yep no

1214
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:14,560
bother at all i'll get one done and

1215
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:16,720
we'll uh get it to you as soon as

1216
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:18,000
possible

1217
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:20,880
and i think it was the next day

1218
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:23,920
uh a hardback envelope was delivered to

1219
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:26,480
my room um

1220
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:30,000
opened it and inside was a photograph

1221
00:44:36,630 --> 00:44:32,079
what i had done

1222
00:44:38,550 --> 00:44:36,640
was to say to my colleagues in london

1223
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,560
had the call from the records uh the

1224
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:40,240
photographic come in

1225
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:42,240
and again it was whoever it was i was

1226
00:44:46,150 --> 00:44:44,240
talking to oh yeah another one i said

1227
00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:46,160
well this one is a bit more interesting

1228
00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:46,880
than

1229
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:49,839
anything i've ever

1230
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:50,880
scene

1231
00:44:54,790 --> 00:44:52,560
and um

1232
00:44:57,270 --> 00:44:54,800
i'll tell you what i'll fax it to you

1233
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:57,280
go find right so i went up the stairs to

1234
00:45:01,589 --> 00:44:58,800
the registry

1235
00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:01,599
i had great difficulty getting a decent

1236
00:45:04,710 --> 00:45:02,640
print

1237
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:04,720
because i couldn't i couldn't risk the

1238
00:45:08,470 --> 00:45:06,800
the print going through the fax machine

1239
00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:08,480
yeah so i had to get a piece of plain

1240
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:10,560
paper a copy of it

1241
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:12,480
eventually got one either rather too

1242
00:45:18,069 --> 00:45:15,920
black or too light and um put one in

1243
00:45:19,829 --> 00:45:18,079
press the button chatted for the

1244
00:45:21,589 --> 00:45:19,839
registry staff for a couple of minutes

1245
00:45:23,349 --> 00:45:21,599
walked back down to my office and the

1246
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:23,359
phone was ringing

1247
00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:24,960
and it was

1248
00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:27,920
my contact in in in

1249
00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:29,680
in london

1250
00:45:34,069 --> 00:45:32,720
tell me more about this uh i said well i

1251
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:34,079
can't really tell you anything more

1252
00:45:37,510 --> 00:45:35,680
about it but that's

1253
00:45:38,470 --> 00:45:37,520
that's what you've got

1254
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:38,480
um

1255
00:45:42,069 --> 00:45:41,040
can you get the prince

1256
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:42,079
nice

1257
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:43,920
i can ask the record

1258
00:45:49,030 --> 00:45:46,800
uh and see what's what and then he asked

1259
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:49,040
could i if possible could i get the

1260
00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:51,760
names and contacts for the the people

1261
00:45:55,990 --> 00:45:54,319
who allegedly saw this thing

1262
00:45:57,750 --> 00:45:56,000
again i'll ask the record because

1263
00:45:59,109 --> 00:45:57,760
they've got what they said would be an

1264
00:46:01,270 --> 00:45:59,119
exclusive

1265
00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:01,280
on it and um

1266
00:46:06,790 --> 00:46:04,880
i rang back and uh yeah no no problem i

1267
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:06,800
i'll send the negatives to

1268
00:46:11,670 --> 00:46:09,520
whoever you you want me to to do and

1269
00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:11,680
here's the names and here's a phone

1270
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:16,309
and um

1271
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:18,400
what happened after that

1272
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:19,839
basically i think i just picked up the

1273
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:22,000
phone and tried the number uh it was the

1274
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:25,280
ethel palace hotel is so-and-so around

1275
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:30,160
uh yes i'll get him for you and uh

1276
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:32,480
and i can't remember you're going back a

1277
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:35,280
long long time definitely i thought

1278
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:36,880
it was definitely

1279
00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:40,000
my my memory is the athol palace tell me

1280
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:41,680
what you did

1281
00:46:44,950 --> 00:46:43,520
who are you i

1282
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:44,960
can't remember if i asked where they

1283
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:46,800
were from but they were

1284
00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:48,560
as far as i can remember an english

1285
00:46:52,069 --> 00:46:49,680
accent

1286
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:52,079
they were part of what you call it

1287
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:54,560
holiday workers at the ethel palace

1288
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:56,480
mainly washing dishes

1289
00:47:02,069 --> 00:46:59,200
uh and for pocket money and that as far

1290
00:47:04,150 --> 00:47:02,079
as their trip out that night was uh they

1291
00:47:07,030 --> 00:47:04,160
parked the car

1292
00:47:10,309 --> 00:47:08,950
what he couldn't i can't remember now

1293
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:10,319
whether he said it was the longest i

1294
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:12,720
don't think it was terribly far but the

1295
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:14,560
bits that i do remember was they went

1296
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:16,000
through a wood

1297
00:47:19,829 --> 00:47:17,520
came to the edge of it climbed the

1298
00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:19,839
barbed wire over the barbed wire fence

1299
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:22,160
started to walk over

1300
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:23,440
moorland

1301
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:25,440
and then realized there was something in

1302
00:47:27,829 --> 00:47:26,640
the air

1303
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,839
above them

1304
00:47:32,630 --> 00:47:30,000
or near to them

1305
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:32,640
and they thought this is

1306
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:34,960
i don't like the look of this turned on

1307
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:37,359
their heel ran back tumbled over the

1308
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:39,440
fence and hid

1309
00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:41,760
in bushes or behind trees or something

1310
00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:42,960
in the wood

1311
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:45,040
and sat and looked at this thing which

1312
00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:47,520
just simply sat in the sky

1313
00:47:51,030 --> 00:47:48,960
and um

1314
00:47:52,630 --> 00:47:51,040
and asked do you know how big it was no

1315
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:52,640
idea how big it was we didn't know

1316
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,640
whether it was close to us how far away

1317
00:47:57,750 --> 00:47:56,960
it was or anything

1318
00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:57,760
but

1319
00:48:01,510 --> 00:48:00,640
what was it after he reckoned two three

1320
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:01,520
minutes

1321
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:03,119
didn't time it

1322
00:48:07,829 --> 00:48:06,480
uh they heard the sound of a jet

1323
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:07,839
aircraft

1324
00:48:16,069 --> 00:48:14,230
and

1325
00:48:18,390 --> 00:48:16,079
a minute or two later

1326
00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:18,400
they had the jet again

1327
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:21,280
and it came back and it circled

1328
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:22,880
get this right

1329
00:48:32,069 --> 00:48:29,670
three maybe four times

1330
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:32,079
and then headed off back in its original

1331
00:48:35,750 --> 00:48:34,000
course which suggests the pilot must

1332
00:48:36,390 --> 00:48:35,760
have seen the same thing they

1333
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:36,400
so

1334
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:40,400
and they waited another minute or two

1335
00:48:45,349 --> 00:48:42,559
wondering what the hell to do

1336
00:48:47,270 --> 00:48:45,359
and at that point they

1337
00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:47,280
at some point in this thing they sort of

1338
00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:48,720
stuck the camera

1339
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:50,480
out behind wherever it was they were

1340
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:52,319
hiding shot off

1341
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:54,800
it turned out to be six frames

1342
00:49:00,390 --> 00:48:57,119
and um

1343
00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:00,400
the thing started to move uh upwards

1344
00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:02,480
slowly and then

1345
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:05,680
just shot vertically upwards

1346
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:08,079
and disappeared you know way way up in

1347
00:49:11,750 --> 00:49:09,280
the sky

1348
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:11,760
and the bit that i very clearly remember

1349
00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:13,440
was i said well what sort of noise did

1350
00:49:17,270 --> 00:49:16,079
it make and he said it didn't make any

1351
00:49:19,109 --> 00:49:17,280
noise

1352
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:19,119
i said what do you mean didn't make any

1353
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:20,319
it was silent

1354
00:49:24,309 --> 00:49:23,040
no noise no noise at all

1355
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:24,319
nothing

1356
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:25,920
and that was the end of the conversation

1357
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:28,720
so i sat down i typed out

1358
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:31,200
the basics of it put in the fax machine

1359
00:49:39,510 --> 00:49:36,549
and i can't remember if it was later in

1360
00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:39,520
the day or the next day i got phone call

1361
00:49:42,470 --> 00:49:40,319
from

1362
00:49:44,710 --> 00:49:42,480
my colleague there who said

1363
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:44,720
thank you very much for all this uh from

1364
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:47,440
now on leave it to us so this so they

1365
00:49:51,829 --> 00:49:49,760
said to you leave it leave it to us

1366
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:51,839
after that point but what happened then

1367
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:54,480
what was your next i just left it uh the

1368
00:49:59,589 --> 00:49:57,040
next contact i suppose would have been

1369
00:50:01,510 --> 00:49:59,599
some weeks later when i was in london at

1370
00:50:03,270 --> 00:50:01,520
one of the routine meetings and i went

1371
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:03,280
up the stairs

1372
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:05,119
and

1373
00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:06,480
opened the door

1374
00:50:12,549 --> 00:50:09,359
and there on the other far wall was this

1375
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:12,559
giant poster size picture of

1376
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:15,520
the object and it's it's little aircraft

1377
00:50:18,870 --> 00:50:16,640
at the side

1378
00:50:21,589 --> 00:50:18,880
right it was at eye level right on the

1379
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:21,599
other on the wall how big as a person i

1380
00:50:25,510 --> 00:50:24,640
mean this kind of thing three foot wide

1381
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:25,520
cola

1382
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:27,520
oh color of the print that you'd see

1383
00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:28,480
exactly

1384
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:30,559
did you ever see the other five images

1385
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:33,760
there i have a feel but the reason i i'm

1386
00:50:39,349 --> 00:50:36,319
sure i did was because when i talked to

1387
00:50:41,829 --> 00:50:39,359
the record sawyers i forgot about this

1388
00:50:43,589 --> 00:50:41,839
the picture editor i spoke to

1389
00:50:45,670 --> 00:50:43,599
i i said

1390
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:45,680
you choose the one that you think is the

1391
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:47,280
best one

1392
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:48,400
and i

1393
00:50:52,710 --> 00:50:50,559
got this thing in my mind that i must

1394
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:52,720
because seeing the other ones

1395
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:55,520
the aircraft is in different positions

1396
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:58,400
the basic picture is the same

1397
00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:59,200
yeah

1398
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:01,200
and all that's different is that the

1399
00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:03,359
aircraft is on the left-hand side of the

1400
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:05,760
frame or it's in the far

1401
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:08,079
sorry left and the right hand or it's

1402
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:10,559
nearly going behind the object but this

1403
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:12,640
particular one where it's there

1404
00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:14,160
is the one that i think any picture

1405
00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:16,720
editor would have chosen as being there

1406
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:18,319
so how do you see the other images

1407
00:51:21,589 --> 00:51:20,400
though they must have been in in that

1408
00:51:24,150 --> 00:51:21,599
office

1409
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:24,160
oh in london i didn't see the negatives

1410
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:25,920
or anything like but they always

1411
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:28,880
as well as doing the the big poster size

1412
00:51:33,910 --> 00:51:31,680
print they obviously had you know ten by

1413
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:33,920
eights or something like that i again

1414
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:36,000
can't remember the detail but certainly

1415
00:51:39,190 --> 00:51:37,839
the way because in looking at them i do

1416
00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:39,200
remember seeing

1417
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:41,359
as the picture editor said the aircraft

1418
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:43,520
in different versions so you never had

1419
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:44,960
access to the negatives they went

1420
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:46,559
straight from the record

1421
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:48,880
i i i gave the

1422
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:50,960
the chap at the record

1423
00:51:56,870 --> 00:51:53,839
the name and address of

1424
00:51:58,950 --> 00:51:56,880
the people in london who wanted to see

1425
00:51:59,829 --> 00:51:58,960
to wanted to

1426
00:52:02,549 --> 00:51:59,839
have

1427
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:02,559
use of the negative or see the negatives

1428
00:52:07,990 --> 00:52:05,040
and the record had no objection to it

1429
00:52:10,230 --> 00:52:08,000
and i as i said uh when i talked to to

1430
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:10,240
london maybe the day a couple of days or

1431
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:11,520
a day later

1432
00:52:16,710 --> 00:52:14,400
they've received them and um

1433
00:52:18,790 --> 00:52:16,720
when i visited uh and sort of asked what

1434
00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:18,800
what was happening

1435
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:20,640
to be looked at by the appropriate

1436
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:21,599
people

1437
00:52:25,990 --> 00:52:23,760
i think the last thing i had was well

1438
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:26,000
it's being investigated we've sent the

1439
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:28,000
negatives back

1440
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:31,040
i i didn't ask i just assumed it was

1441
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:33,359
back to the to the record

1442
00:52:36,390 --> 00:52:34,559
so they didn't tell you that they didn't

1443
00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:36,400
tell the negative yeah we've sent the

1444
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:38,960
negatives back

1445
00:52:43,670 --> 00:52:42,400
we've had a good look at them and um

1446
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:43,680
again i thought well you know they've

1447
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:46,800
told me not to get involved so i just

1448
00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:49,760
did i was told sorry the only comment i

1449
00:52:53,109 --> 00:52:51,040
got

1450
00:52:56,710 --> 00:52:53,119
was that they had a good look at them

1451
00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:56,720
and they couldn't find anything to prove

1452
00:53:01,109 --> 00:52:59,040
that the negatives had been

1453
00:53:04,390 --> 00:53:01,119
what was the word

1454
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:04,400
uh interfered with or or manipulated in

1455
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:07,040
any way yeah yeah yeah so it wasn't a

1456
00:53:15,670 --> 00:53:12,470
draw your own conclusions yeah

1457
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:15,680
did they say who they sent it to

1458
00:53:18,870 --> 00:53:17,280
especially

1459
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:18,880
our janet was the only one that was

1460
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:20,960
mentioned yeah

1461
00:53:25,190 --> 00:53:22,800
i mean that's that's the the front of

1462
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:25,200
all knowledge as far as yeah further

1463
00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:27,280
interpretation is concerned i mean these

1464
00:53:30,790 --> 00:53:29,040
guys well they know what they're looking

1465
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:30,800
for

1466
00:53:34,630 --> 00:53:32,880
so that was craig talking about how you

1467
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:34,640
know how he he got hold of the the

1468
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,119
images and his involvement and so then

1469
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:39,200
obviously you went off on your walking

1470
00:53:44,069 --> 00:53:42,160
holiday david and returned back back

1471
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:44,079
home to sheffield

1472
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:47,040
and you know you were still

1473
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:48,720
speaking with craig so let's move it

1474
00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:51,440
into the negotiation stage and then

1475
00:53:56,230 --> 00:53:54,000
leading up from there well i mean it was

1476
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:56,240
it was finding craig and and all this

1477
00:54:00,710 --> 00:53:58,240
new information all spilling out that i

1478
00:54:04,309 --> 00:54:02,710
the little group then went into

1479
00:54:05,910 --> 00:54:04,319
overdrive didn't we i mean we were just

1480
00:54:07,750 --> 00:54:05,920
following it was like

1481
00:54:09,510 --> 00:54:07,760
a proper you know old-fashioned

1482
00:54:12,069 --> 00:54:09,520
journalistic investigation where we were

1483
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:12,079
just following up every single lead

1484
00:54:16,790 --> 00:54:13,680
and and i'd mentioned that while i was

1485
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:16,800
in pittsford i went to all the um

1486
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:18,480
several hotels because we didn't know

1487
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:20,160
for sure whether it was the athol palace

1488
00:54:23,910 --> 00:54:22,160
or one of the others we had a little

1489
00:54:26,950 --> 00:54:23,920
poster printed up saying anyone with

1490
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:26,960
information cash reward for information

1491
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:28,720
and the bizarre thing was we got

1492
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:31,839
virtually nothing back which i just find

1493
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:34,319
even now i find bizarre

1494
00:54:38,870 --> 00:54:36,079
but we've made this huge breakthrough

1495
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:38,880
yeah here we go cash reward

1496
00:54:44,789 --> 00:54:42,400
we've we contacted some um local um uh

1497
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:44,799
police officers who we who

1498
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:46,000
were

1499
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:48,079
community officers at the time they they

1500
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:49,520
tried to help us but didn't we didn't

1501
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:50,880
get very far

1502
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:53,280
with that we had stuff on them in the

1503
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:56,160
local newspapers on the local um

1504
00:55:01,349 --> 00:54:58,559
facebook group and and the good thing

1505
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:01,359
was craig i think realized that this was

1506
00:55:05,030 --> 00:55:03,200
something really really significant and

1507
00:55:07,349 --> 00:55:05,040
he couldn't just disappear off into the

1508
00:55:08,630 --> 00:55:07,359
distance again for another 30 years

1509
00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:08,640
and um

1510
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:10,720
he was he was a bit reluctant about he

1511
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:12,480
wants to he wanted to get rid of the

1512
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:14,400
photograph he doesn't want publicity he

1513
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:16,640
doesn't want to be in the um

1514
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:18,960
the spotlight so the the

1515
00:55:23,589 --> 00:55:22,160
the solution we came up to up with was

1516
00:55:25,349 --> 00:55:23,599
um

1517
00:55:27,829 --> 00:55:25,359
he didn't own the photograph he couldn't

1518
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:27,839
sell it he didn't want to retain it so i

1519
00:55:32,549 --> 00:55:29,920
just said well the obvious solution

1520
00:55:34,870 --> 00:55:32,559
craig is why don't you donate it to my

1521
00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:34,880
university to the library and archives

1522
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:36,640
and we'll act as the custodians we'll

1523
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:38,240
take it off your hands

1524
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:40,000
um obviously we're

1525
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:41,680
you know there's going to be a story

1526
00:55:43,829 --> 00:55:42,960
about this we're going to i'm going to

1527
00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:43,839
write something for one of the

1528
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:46,000
newspapers it will all come out and if

1529
00:55:49,510 --> 00:55:47,440
you don't want to be bothered by all the

1530
00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:49,520
publicity that it's going to bring

1531
00:55:53,510 --> 00:55:51,440
it let us deal with it you know and we

1532
00:55:55,349 --> 00:55:53,520
we will negotiate the image rights you

1533
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:55,359
know he was a bit worried that once it

1534
00:55:58,710 --> 00:55:56,880
gets on the internet that people are

1535
00:55:59,990 --> 00:55:58,720
just going to plagiarize it they're just

1536
00:56:03,589 --> 00:56:00,000
going to copy it

1537
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:03,599
um because we don't know um who the

1538
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:06,240
copyright belongs to it's just gonna get

1539
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:07,920
everyone will want a piece of it so i

1540
00:56:11,349 --> 00:56:09,359
mean this is what we've been grappling

1541
00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:11,359
with over the last few months and that's

1542
00:56:16,470 --> 00:56:13,920
why it's taken so long to actually make

1543
00:56:19,349 --> 00:56:16,480
this program that we're now making and

1544
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:19,359
and put the truth out there um it's been

1545
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:23,119
a long hard um

1546
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:24,640
job hasn't it i mean i think you'll all

1547
00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:25,680
agree

1548
00:56:28,710 --> 00:56:27,520
yeah it's just good to be able to

1549
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,720
actually talk about this now because

1550
00:56:33,349 --> 00:56:30,400
we've had to keep it secret and i hate

1551
00:56:35,349 --> 00:56:33,359
keeping things secret of course um and

1552
00:56:37,589 --> 00:56:35,359
at any stage this could have bits of it

1553
00:56:39,829 --> 00:56:37,599
could have leaked out but the fact is

1554
00:56:42,789 --> 00:56:39,839
craig um

1555
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:42,799
actually yet handed the the photograph

1556
00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:44,880
the envelope and everything else to do

1557
00:56:49,030 --> 00:56:47,119
with the case over to myself and vinnie

1558
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:49,040
uh was it end of june beginning of july

1559
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:50,640
vinnie we made it was the very end of

1560
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:52,880
june that's right yeah

1561
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:56,400
we met craig at raf petrievi castle

1562
00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:57,200
um

1563
00:57:01,829 --> 00:57:00,720
with him didn't he he handed it over i

1564
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:01,839
think with a

1565
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:25,910
so basically we we now have in sheffield

1566
00:57:31,030 --> 00:57:28,960
alum um archives the original print

1567
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:31,040
the craig was mystified as to why the

1568
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:33,599
story never ran in the daily record

1569
00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:36,079
but after a little bit of sleuthing we

1570
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:39,280
think we found the reason for that um

1571
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:41,520
and uh there'd always been a query

1572
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:43,440
whether this was a d notice had been

1573
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:46,720
issued over the story and so d notice

1574
00:57:51,910 --> 00:57:49,920
was were issued um by an organization

1575
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:51,920
based in london which today is known as

1576
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:55,440
the dsma committee um

1577
00:58:00,950 --> 00:57:58,000
and we i contacted them and asked and

1578
00:58:02,549 --> 00:58:00,960
they said no no no we got no record of a

1579
00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:02,559
d notice being issued

1580
00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:05,680
um but then we've got that memo that

1581
00:58:10,870 --> 00:58:08,480
david had found in which it referred to

1582
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:10,880
uh a sighting in which a d notice had

1583
00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:13,280
been issued um so we weren't sure

1584
00:58:17,990 --> 00:58:15,920
whether that was this one or whether it

1585
00:58:20,630 --> 00:58:18,000
was say the boss come down incident or

1586
00:58:22,710 --> 00:58:20,640
whether it was one we were unaware of um

1587
00:58:25,750 --> 00:58:22,720
but then i we happened we knew what the

1588
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:25,760
name of the editor of the daily record

1589
00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:28,079
uh with who he was in 1990 and whose

1590
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:29,760
name was endlered

1591
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:33,119
um he's deceased now but uh i

1592
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:35,760
just uh out of curiosity emailed the

1593
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:38,400
dsma committee and said who was uh

1594
00:58:42,549 --> 00:58:40,720
serving on your committee in 1990 please

1595
00:58:44,870 --> 00:58:42,559
and they sent me a list and i just was

1596
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:44,880
just scanning down it and lo and behold

1597
00:58:48,549 --> 00:58:46,160
they're in the middle

1598
00:58:50,870 --> 00:58:48,559
and led yeah so

1599
00:58:52,470 --> 00:58:50,880
there's no need you'd sent it you

1600
00:58:54,150 --> 00:58:52,480
possibly sent it to like the worst

1601
00:58:56,069 --> 00:58:54,160
newspaper you could have picked with a

1602
00:58:57,829 --> 00:58:56,079
guy at that point serving on the

1603
00:58:59,670 --> 00:58:57,839
committee designed specifically to keep

1604
00:59:02,829 --> 00:58:59,680
things like this out of the public eye

1605
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:02,839
absolutely um yeah

1606
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:05,920
um now i should make the point that um

1607
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:08,240
the press don't have to pay any

1608
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:10,079
attention to what the d notice committee

1609
00:59:14,230 --> 00:59:11,119
tells them

1610
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:14,240
and when this this idea that newspapers

1611
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:17,599
and media are served with d notices is

1612
00:59:21,270 --> 00:59:19,440
an anachronism that might have happened

1613
00:59:22,789 --> 00:59:21,280
back in the first world war

1614
00:59:24,710 --> 00:59:22,799
it's certainly not happened for the last

1615
00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:24,720
20 or 30 years what there are are

1616
00:59:28,789 --> 00:59:26,880
standing d nurses which anyone can read

1617
00:59:30,470 --> 00:59:28,799
they're on the internet which cover

1618
00:59:33,109 --> 00:59:30,480
things like you know revealing the names

1619
00:59:35,349 --> 00:59:33,119
of sas soldiers and you know where

1620
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,359
nuclear weapons are stored and

1621
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:37,440
potential threats to national security

1622
00:59:41,750 --> 00:59:39,680
so they don't actually serve anything

1623
00:59:43,270 --> 00:59:41,760
what happens is if you're a journalist

1624
00:59:44,950 --> 00:59:43,280
and you're working on a story that you

1625
00:59:47,750 --> 00:59:44,960
think might have national security

1626
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:47,760
implications you can if you want and you

1627
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:49,119
don't have to

1628
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:50,960
phone this nice gentleman brigadier

1629
00:59:55,910 --> 00:59:54,400
whoever he is at the mod and explain

1630
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:55,920
what it is you're working on and that

1631
00:59:59,670 --> 00:59:57,359
person will then advise you as to

1632
01:00:01,430 --> 00:59:59,680
whether it's he thinks it's advisable to

1633
01:00:02,390 --> 01:00:01,440
publish or not but you can just listen

1634
01:00:05,109 --> 01:00:02,400
to that

1635
01:00:07,109 --> 01:00:05,119
and disregard the advice so i think

1636
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:07,119
what's happened in this case is is that

1637
01:00:10,549 --> 01:00:09,280
the the um when the negatives were

1638
01:00:12,230 --> 01:00:10,559
returned

1639
01:00:15,270 --> 01:00:12,240
to the daily record

1640
01:00:17,030 --> 01:00:15,280
um they it seemed as this chap endless

1641
01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:17,040
was actually on the committee because

1642
01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:19,040
there are press representatives who sit

1643
01:00:24,870 --> 01:00:21,760
on the committee which meets every month

1644
01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:24,880
or however many however often at the

1645
01:00:29,109 --> 01:00:26,960
ministry of defense main building and

1646
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:29,119
press people which sort of

1647
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:31,280
they serve a period of time you know six

1648
01:00:35,430 --> 01:00:32,720
months and then someone else will come

1649
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:35,440
from itn or whatever and all that seems

1650
01:00:38,230 --> 01:00:36,960
to what could have happened in this case

1651
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:38,240
is he just tapped him on the shoulder at

1652
01:00:41,190 --> 01:00:39,359
one of the meetings and just said you

1653
01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:41,200
know those photographs you've been is

1654
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:42,880
that you know given the fact that you

1655
01:00:46,390 --> 01:00:45,200
know this the gulf war is going on and

1656
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:46,400
this is something we've not mentioned

1657
01:00:51,510 --> 01:00:48,799
that this sighting happened two days

1658
01:00:52,870 --> 01:00:51,520
um after saddam hussein invaded kuwait

1659
01:00:55,670 --> 01:00:52,880
all they would have had to say is this

1660
01:00:57,510 --> 01:00:55,680
was some kind of secret um

1661
01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,520
exercise that was going on as we were

1662
01:01:02,309 --> 01:00:59,520
sending our aircraft and stuff over to

1663
01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:02,319
iraq um it could compromise national

1664
01:01:06,950 --> 01:01:04,480
security if you publish your story and

1665
01:01:07,990 --> 01:01:06,960
please don't publish it and he obviously

1666
01:01:10,950 --> 01:01:08,000
um

1667
01:01:12,630 --> 01:01:10,960
well we're guessing he took the advice

1668
01:01:14,390 --> 01:01:12,640
it's the only explanation as to why the

1669
01:01:15,510 --> 01:01:14,400
story didn't run

1670
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:15,520
yeah

1671
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:17,280
so i guess you know we got back with the

1672
01:01:21,030 --> 01:01:19,839
photograph then after collecting it and

1673
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:21,040
i think now we're just about to hear

1674
01:01:25,750 --> 01:01:22,880
that hour mark would be a good time just

1675
01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:25,760
to bring up the the image itself in its

1676
01:01:28,789 --> 01:01:27,040
glory

1677
01:01:33,510 --> 01:01:28,799
um

1678
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:35,349
there we are so let's

1679
01:01:39,030 --> 01:01:37,520
now that kind of doesn't work

1680
01:01:40,789 --> 01:01:39,040
there we go that's better

1681
01:01:42,470 --> 01:01:40,799
so yeah let's talk about you know

1682
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:42,480
obviously it went

1683
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:44,640
back with myself and you to sheffield to

1684
01:01:49,270 --> 01:01:46,880
go into the archives which it's there

1685
01:01:50,789 --> 01:01:49,280
now isn't it so let's talk about you

1686
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:50,799
know

1687
01:01:55,750 --> 01:01:53,440
the photograph itself um

1688
01:01:56,789 --> 01:01:55,760
and what you've had done with it so far

1689
01:01:58,950 --> 01:01:56,799
yeah well

1690
01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:58,960
immediately um a colleague of mine at

1691
01:02:03,670 --> 01:02:00,720
the center for contemporary legend

1692
01:02:07,349 --> 01:02:03,680
andrew um robinson who is a

1693
01:02:09,990 --> 01:02:07,359
expert photographer and is it

1694
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:10,000
brilliantly his expertise lies in

1695
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:11,920
pre-digital photography that's that's

1696
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:14,240
what he's interested in i told him about

1697
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,319
this and straight away because he's done

1698
01:02:21,510 --> 01:02:18,559
work on the cottingly fairy photographs

1699
01:02:23,029 --> 01:02:21,520
he's interested in the paranormal

1700
01:02:25,109 --> 01:02:23,039
straight away it was i need to look at

1701
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:25,119
this photograph and i can sort of get a

1702
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:27,359
high resolution scan and i can sort of

1703
01:02:32,069 --> 01:02:30,480
try and work out as the mod did

1704
01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:32,079
using the sort of you know the fence

1705
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:34,079
posts and the relative distances i don't

1706
01:02:38,549 --> 01:02:36,160
understand all this he said i'll do my

1707
01:02:41,349 --> 01:02:38,559
best to try and work out how large the

1708
01:02:42,789 --> 01:02:41,359
object is and how far away it is and he

1709
01:02:45,270 --> 01:02:42,799
did i mean

1710
01:02:47,990 --> 01:02:45,280
we can put his report up on them on your

1711
01:02:49,829 --> 01:02:48,000
website um vinnie but he went into a

1712
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:49,839
massive amount of detail you know i was

1713
01:02:53,589 --> 01:02:51,760
i was i was amazed what he was able to

1714
01:02:55,829 --> 01:02:53,599
work out but he was able to say from the

1715
01:02:57,270 --> 01:02:55,839
paper and from the what was printed on

1716
01:03:01,510 --> 01:02:57,280
the paper

1717
01:03:05,190 --> 01:03:01,520
definitely this is a genuine um

1718
01:03:07,750 --> 01:03:05,200
print of that era dated eight 1989 1990

1719
01:03:09,990 --> 01:03:07,760
no doubt about it and basically said

1720
01:03:12,069 --> 01:03:10,000
it whatever was photographed was an

1721
01:03:13,750 --> 01:03:12,079
object in front of the camera you know

1722
01:03:18,549 --> 01:03:13,760
it's not been it's not a cutout that's

1723
01:03:22,630 --> 01:03:20,069
well you've read the report you know so

1724
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:22,640
what what did you claim it i mean it's

1725
01:03:27,349 --> 01:03:24,400
very in-depth the detail the levels of

1726
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:27,359
detail like you said with the paper

1727
01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:29,760
and things like that it's fantastic read

1728
01:03:33,349 --> 01:03:31,760
so yeah i'll link that below as well for

1729
01:03:35,430 --> 01:03:33,359
if anyone wants to go and check that out

1730
01:03:37,510 --> 01:03:35,440
it's you know it's really interesting

1731
01:03:39,510 --> 01:03:37,520
but he actually was able to work out the

1732
01:03:40,390 --> 01:03:39,520
approximate length of the object as well

1733
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:40,400
yeah

1734
01:03:47,990 --> 01:03:45,200
it was interesting as well that uh his

1735
01:03:49,670 --> 01:03:48,000
findings seem to indicate someone with a

1736
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:49,680
knowledge of photography or an interest

1737
01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:52,480
in photography had taken the picture uh

1738
01:03:55,990 --> 01:03:54,319
it was taken using

1739
01:03:57,510 --> 01:03:56,000
better quality film

1740
01:03:59,670 --> 01:03:57,520
than your average photographer would

1741
01:04:01,510 --> 01:03:59,680
have used um

1742
01:04:03,109 --> 01:04:01,520
and and like you say you know he

1743
01:04:04,549 --> 01:04:03,119
couldn't detect any

1744
01:04:07,270 --> 01:04:04,559
abnormalities

1745
01:04:09,270 --> 01:04:07,280
um in the print at all to indicate any

1746
01:04:10,150 --> 01:04:09,280
any hoaxing or anything like that

1747
01:04:12,470 --> 01:04:10,160
um

1748
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:12,480
yeah so it's you know it's really hugely

1749
01:04:16,870 --> 01:04:15,039
detailed um xp1

1750
01:04:20,630 --> 01:04:16,880
paper i think it was

1751
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:20,640
um and the the kodak writing on the back

1752
01:04:24,150 --> 01:04:22,160
um and we've got the provenance you know

1753
01:04:26,470 --> 01:04:24,160
we've got like it's well the chain of

1754
01:04:27,670 --> 01:04:26,480
custody is only one one link long isn't

1755
01:04:29,190 --> 01:04:27,680
it really you know

1756
01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:29,200
well the two two links you know the

1757
01:04:33,430 --> 01:04:31,280
record made it they send it to craig and

1758
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:33,440
he kept it and

1759
01:04:38,710 --> 01:04:35,760
you can and you can actually discern on

1760
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:38,720
this um the original print there is some

1761
01:04:42,470 --> 01:04:40,799
um you can see some of the landscape in

1762
01:04:43,829 --> 01:04:42,480
the in the distance and he did pick that

1763
01:04:46,230 --> 01:04:43,839
out i mean did did that tell you

1764
01:04:48,230 --> 01:04:46,240
anything new giles when you saw

1765
01:04:49,829 --> 01:04:48,240
the high-res

1766
01:04:51,510 --> 01:04:49,839
yeah i mean it's a shame there's you

1767
01:04:52,950 --> 01:04:51,520
know you mentioned shahali and earlier

1768
01:04:54,549 --> 01:04:52,960
there isn't sort of shahalen in the

1769
01:04:56,549 --> 01:04:54,559
background and we could work out exactly

1770
01:04:59,190 --> 01:04:56,559
where it was so in a way that kind of

1771
01:05:02,390 --> 01:04:59,200
gives a clue in itself it was clearly

1772
01:05:04,630 --> 01:05:02,400
taken at a reasonably high elevation

1773
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:04,640
um the fact that there isn't any

1774
01:05:07,589 --> 01:05:06,160
you know high terrain in the background

1775
01:05:09,430 --> 01:05:07,599
you're not looking at you know this

1776
01:05:11,349 --> 01:05:09,440
object in front of a mountain you're

1777
01:05:13,589 --> 01:05:11,359
looking at you know and it's it's pretty

1778
01:05:15,589 --> 01:05:13,599
sort of it looks it's almost

1779
01:05:17,670 --> 01:05:15,599
not too far above the high line of the

1780
01:05:20,470 --> 01:05:17,680
photographer does it so

1781
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:20,480
um but yeah i mean it's going back to

1782
01:05:25,670 --> 01:05:22,400
the photo it's obviously not going to

1783
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:25,680
win any awards for for its aesthetic

1784
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:27,280
beauty but it's

1785
01:05:31,109 --> 01:05:28,880
it's really i mean

1786
01:05:33,349 --> 01:05:31,119
it must go now straight into the top 10

1787
01:05:35,829 --> 01:05:33,359
potentially most significant photographs

1788
01:05:37,589 --> 01:05:35,839
ever take it oh yeah you think about it

1789
01:05:39,510 --> 01:05:37,599
i mean it's it's a

1790
01:05:41,750 --> 01:05:39,520
it's top five even if you really think

1791
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:41,760
about what we're dealing with here

1792
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:44,960
um when you can perhaps discard the fact

1793
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:46,960
that it's it's a hoax which i think you

1794
01:05:50,309 --> 01:05:48,799
know we get into that stage where we can

1795
01:05:52,230 --> 01:05:50,319
so

1796
01:05:57,029 --> 01:05:52,240
you know that only leaves a couple of

1797
01:06:02,549 --> 01:06:00,549
this is the only surviving image

1798
01:06:04,710 --> 01:06:02,559
of the calvin ufo you know all the rest

1799
01:06:06,710 --> 01:06:04,720
of them have disappeared somewhere

1800
01:06:09,190 --> 01:06:06,720
possibly destroyed possibly hidden in

1801
01:06:11,190 --> 01:06:09,200
some vault somewhere they're never going

1802
01:06:13,029 --> 01:06:11,200
to release those images so the fact that

1803
01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:13,039
craig saved this one and we now have it

1804
01:06:19,349 --> 01:06:16,240
is we are so lucky um

1805
01:06:21,270 --> 01:06:19,359
to actually have access to that image

1806
01:06:23,190 --> 01:06:21,280
absolutely

1807
01:06:24,069 --> 01:06:23,200
so well you know everyone watching i

1808
01:06:24,950 --> 01:06:24,079
hope

1809
01:06:26,470 --> 01:06:24,960
you know

1810
01:06:28,150 --> 01:06:26,480
i'd like to know so i'd like to hear

1811
01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:28,160
some feedback in fact from people what

1812
01:06:31,109 --> 01:06:30,160
they think about it you know because

1813
01:06:33,589 --> 01:06:31,119
it's certainly going to be a

1814
01:06:35,109 --> 01:06:33,599
conversation starter for a lot of people

1815
01:06:37,430 --> 01:06:35,119
but one other thing surrounding this

1816
01:06:38,230 --> 01:06:37,440
case is there's still a lot of

1817
01:06:40,309 --> 01:06:38,240
you know

1818
01:06:42,309 --> 01:06:40,319
nuances and details about what it

1819
01:06:43,990 --> 01:06:42,319
actually was and we haven't kind of

1820
01:06:45,910 --> 01:06:44,000
really touched upon it in this this

1821
01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:45,920
video but maybe in the next couple of

1822
01:06:48,789 --> 01:06:47,359
weeks we'll get back together and do

1823
01:06:51,109 --> 01:06:48,799
another one and we'll just literally

1824
01:06:52,950 --> 01:06:51,119
talk about everything

1825
01:06:54,870 --> 01:06:52,960
if you guys are up for that and take

1826
01:06:56,549 --> 01:06:54,880
questions from the i'll take questions

1827
01:06:58,150 --> 01:06:56,559
yeah we'll do a live show and take

1828
01:06:59,910 --> 01:06:58,160
questions

1829
01:07:01,750 --> 01:06:59,920
so yeah before we finish gentlemen does

1830
01:07:03,190 --> 01:07:01,760
anyone have anything else that that they

1831
01:07:04,710 --> 01:07:03,200
want to say or

1832
01:07:06,870 --> 01:07:04,720
well i just want to thank someone i just

1833
01:07:09,430 --> 01:07:06,880
want to thank you as a team for for

1834
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:09,440
being such a such fantastic colleagues

1835
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:12,160
over the last few um months and you know

1836
01:07:15,349 --> 01:07:13,599
i don't think any of us could have done

1837
01:07:17,829 --> 01:07:15,359
this on our own actually because we've

1838
01:07:20,549 --> 01:07:17,839
all played a sort of a unique part in

1839
01:07:22,069 --> 01:07:20,559
putting this all together

1840
01:07:23,910 --> 01:07:22,079
thank you it's been it's been a real

1841
01:07:26,549 --> 01:07:23,920
privilege to be to be part of this as

1842
01:07:29,510 --> 01:07:26,559
well it's um you know it's it's been a

1843
01:07:33,589 --> 01:07:29,520
saga at times it really has and you know

1844
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:35,510
yeah yeah i can see that i can feel the

1845
01:07:41,029 --> 01:07:37,359
men in black coming down the design

1846
01:07:44,789 --> 01:07:42,789
well listen gentlemen thank you so much

1847
01:07:45,589 --> 01:07:44,799
for doing this thank you for everything

1848
01:07:47,589 --> 01:07:45,599
and

1849
01:07:49,190 --> 01:07:47,599
yeah thank you to everyone watching like

1850
01:07:50,950 --> 01:07:49,200
you said come and check out the channel

1851
01:07:52,950 --> 01:07:50,960
for a follow-on video where you can come

1852
01:07:55,349 --> 01:07:52,960
and ask all of your questions i'm sure

1853
01:07:57,990 --> 01:07:55,359
there's going to be a lot but for now

1854
01:07:59,290 --> 01:07:58,000
we'll see you on the next one bye

1855
01:08:07,580 --> 01:07:59,300
cheers

1856
01:08:07,590 --> 01:08:11,029
[Music]

1857
01:08:11,039 --> 01:08:15,600
oh